In this wide-ranging interview with Fellowship Magazine, Very Rev. David Giuliano, current Moderator of the United Church of Canada, offeres his views on what lies ahead for the denomination, comments on the decline of membership numbers and provides an insight into his own personal faith journey.

The interview was conducted in late November by Rev. Ralph Garbe, a member of Fellowship Publications Board of Directors. An edited version of that conversation follows:

Who has been the most influential person in your faith development?

I can't limit it to one person. My parents, obviously. Their constant unfolding as Christians, and faithfulness and determination about trying to understand what that means. My family shaped my life very much as a Christian.

I would also say the elders, the youth leaders, and people at Glenwood United Church (in Windsor, Ont.) who demonstrated to me a very radical kind of willingness to risk in faith-I mean to trust that God was going to be present, and to live that out.

Writers and certainly some particular authors have had a big influence. My partner, Pearl. She and I have been together since I was 15, so we've grown up in faith together. In a probably very profound way my children, in a sense that the relationship with them and being a father has really deepened me and caused me to grow in my relationship with God. And the community I've done ministry with in Marathon (Ont.) for the last 19 years.

How would you describe your relationship with Jesus Christ?

My relationship is with the historical Jesus and with the present-day Christ. The historical Jesus was a human person on earth who manifested God's love and the Spirit of God in a very unique and dramatic way. He proclaimed a different way of life for us on earth, and continues to live and be an active agent in the world. I've encountered the Christ who I've experienced sometimes in a very quiet way and sometimes in a more dramatic way.

What motivated you to agree to be nominated for moderator?

Well, I had a very strong inner sense that God was asking something of me when people in my presbytery came and asked if I would allow my name to stand for that. I certainly talked with my partner, and there was lots of prayer and discussion around that. In the end, it was really about trusting the community to discern God's will. I am a part of the faith community and there are times in that experience when we have to trust our community to decide what's best.

What vision do you see for the United Church in the future?

What kind of vision? Now there's a surprise question.

General Council Executive just last week was working around the image of being in a bit of a swamp. You know we're not really sure where we are going to come out of it, but we know we need to go through this to get to the other side. I don't have a snapshot of what I want it to look like. I think that is in God's hands. Our task is to try to respond to the nuance of where the Spirit seems to be leading us.

I think we need to listen to more people who are on the margins of our church, those who have not always had a place in shaping and deciding what the church looks like. The Bible passage around that which really resonates with me right now is Jesus saying that, when you give a banquet, invite the poor and the lame and the crippled. I think I have this sense that our blessing is tied up in making the table bigger, making room for people who have not been at that table, so that they can help bless us. They can help shape who we are as a community in ways that we don't even know yet.

Can you give me some examples of that?

I was down at a Native Circle Conference executive meeting at Wolfville Island. They spoke primarily in Ojibwa. I was noticing how a kind of transformation happens when people speak in their own language. There is this look of being a little taller and there's strength and there's a song almost in the voice. And I get thinking, what is the language which we maybe need to recover and reclaim? I think that a small minority within Christianity has claimed ownership of that language and those stories and the right to determine what they mean.

I was under the impression that Christianity was worldwide and practiced by many cultures and many languages and I wasn't aware that it was that narrow.

Well, it's not, but I think in Western culture we interpret much of our culture to be part of our faith.. We're not always as sensitive to, or open to, the cultural expressions that occur within Christianity elsewhere. We don't use words like "redemption," "surrender," and "grace" in the liberal side of the church because they have come to mean something quite narrow within Christianity. And so, what would it mean to recover the language that helps us to maintain a culture of the Kingdom of God? It is an observation that comes from the margins of our church that may help us to understand who we are better.

Is there a difference between culture, style and substance?

Oh, absolutely. I believe there is something very deep in us that comes out of our cultures. Jesus came into a particular culture proclaiming a very different culture from the one in which he lived. I think as people who are trying to disciple our lives to his way now, we need to look at the pressure points between our culture as Westerners, as Canadians and the culture of Jesus.

I don't want to go too far on that. I've been two months now asking this question and I suspect at the end of three years I'll be able to give you a lot more examples of witness and vision from the edges of the church.

What will be your priorities for the next three years?

The main priority, I think, is to continue the work that was begun in the last triennium, which was around discerning God's will for the church in this next generation. I think that Peter (Short) did a very wise thing in inviting church leaders together to reflect on that. I'd like to continue to ask the question more on the fringes of our church rather than at the core. I think sometimes people on the edges of the community will be able to help us see that better.

Peter Short made an observation that language and talk about Jesus Christ was absent from the church and he sought to recover that as one of the priorities that he had. You've indicated that you wanted to follow in the footsteps of Peter.

Peter said he observed that people didn't use the word "Jesus," and he wondered why. He didn't say he wanted to recover that, just to be clear. He observed a phenomenon in our community and invited us to wonder together about that. Where is the discomfort, where does it come from? Is it discomfort, or just unfamiliarity? And, I must say, I have noticed a change around that. People do use the name "Jesus" more.

What has encouraged the change, do you think?

I think the freedom to not be judged about it, but to wonder about it. What Peter did was invite people to reflect on it, to ask in their hearts, where is that word for me? What's that about?

The United Church has a large faith umbrella and it includes many traditional orthodox and evangelical believers who in recent years have felt marginalized and not given respect or proper recognition in the courts, literature, and the publications of the church. Do you have any ideas how that perception might be changed?

I don't think it's just a perception. I think it's an accurate perception. I think it's probably true that those voices are not always as welcome and celebrated, be it orthodox or traditional voices. My sense is that one of the most important things we can do to heal that difference is to focus on ministry and discipleship, rather than on personal piety and theological debate. I think humility, and focusing on our shared ministry and discipleship, would go a long way to healing those differences.

Do you believe that there could be more of a balance in terms of the professorships at our colleges to include staff and professors of evangelical and orthodox persuasion?

I don't think it is my role to decide who teaches at theological colleges. I think that one of the challenges is around tolerance and acceptance and celebration of difference. And I think anyone who can celebrate difference in an open environment of learning is welcome to teach at theological colleges. I think there are those who are on the "progressive" end of Christianity who can be quite intolerant and clearly there are those who are more "theologically orthodox" who believe that they are right, and if you don't agree with them, you're wrong.

There appears to be a significant number of theological students entering our seminaries from backgrounds of lively evangelical congregations. Do you think this is an opportunity for the church to encourage such persons to enter our seminaries?

I think most people arrive at theological school pretty passionate and on fire-it's a pretty big decision and it's a big commitment to go. I don't think people from evangelical congregations have the market cornered on that passion. I think it is very important that we learn to use our mind as well as our hearts in the activity of offering leadership in the church. Is it an opportunity? I don't think that people coming from evangelical congregations are more lively for Jesus than those who come from more traditional congregations. It just hasn't been my experience.

In my last congregation one of the ways in which we tried to educate people to the Christian faith was through the Alpha course. Do you have any comments about the way Alpha could be promoted in the United Church as a way of encouraging people to understand the basic tenets of the faith?

I've heard of Alpha in name. My understanding is that it is an orthodox approach to welcoming seekers into the church, but beyond that I don't know anything about it. It hasn't been part of my experience or journey.

I am wondering about the teaching function of the Church. What truth is the Church to teach? Is it about lifestyle or is it about truth? Is it about revelation that has come to us? Is it about both? What do you think the educational task of the Church should be, for instance, around confirmation?

I would say the educational task is to help the youth and young adults or anyone who is becoming confirmed to learn how to disciple their lives through the way of Christ, to make a commitment, to continue to grow and to learn and to discern what it means to follow Jesus at each time and place in their life.

Do you feel that it would helpful if you had dialogue with evangelical and orthodox leaders in the United Church from time to time?

If it's dialogue, that's great. I think it might be better to sit in silence together for a while, because I think that so often when people of liberal and orthodox perspectives get together, it's more about debate than dialogue. Diversity is a very healthy thing, but I often have felt that there are groups within the Church (and I am not centering anyone out) that feel that the goal is to get everyone to believe the same thing. I think that would be the death of us.

We mail Fellowship Magazine to all clergy in the United Church except those who inform us that they do not wish to receive it. I understand at one point you asked to be taken off the mailing list and now you've asked to be put back on. What was your reason for that?

At the time that I cancelled it and asked that it not be sent to me, there had been about two or three issues in a row (and I don't remember exactly what they were about) where I felt just personally attacked by what I read. I've asked to be restored partly because I've picked it up since and read some good articles in it, and partly because I think as Moderator, I have a responsibility to be attentive to where people are across the broad range of the church.

How do you feel Fellowship Magazine can be of service to our church?

I think it does speak to our current identity by reminding us of our history, who we are, and where we are from. Also it speaks of the values of the people who went before us, and that is very important. So it contributes to health and diversity, and that is important.

General Council passed a resolution to encourage United Church members to read the New Testament once a year for the next triennium. Are there any plans that you are aware of that would encourage that to happen?

There are hundreds of proposals and motions made by General Council. It's a complicated process to work through them. We have asked units within Church House and the volunteer committees to put together proposals. Then at our Executive meeting in May, we will have a priority-setting process based on "The Call to Purpose," the overarching statement made by General Council.

Would you like to have it receive a proper priority?

I would like to give it proper priority. I think there are all kinds of people in our church reading the Bible. I'm not sure how you tell them, "Read your Bible." I read mine.

I find in the United Church, there is a constant encouragement to read this book and that book and this author and that author. Is there really encouragement for people to go to the source of the faith that we share?

I just don't know. I hear you sharing it's important to you.

A question about the advertising campaign. Is the motivation because we are declining in our membership or because we really feel positive about our contribution to people?

I think it's because we are called to reach out to the world around us. That's a call of all faithful people-to reach out. I think that it may have been approved at General Council because people are worried about numbers.

Well, they are going down.

Yes, clearly. For me that is not the biggest issue. We don't exist to fill our churches. We exist to be faithful, and we don't even have to be successful-just faithful. I think that's what Emerging Spirit and Wondercafé are about-people trying to give their best. Whether we agree with them or don't agree with them, they have worked hard to do the research, to ask the questions, to be prayerful about what it means to be faithful in a circumstance, and this is what they have offered. God will do with that what God will.

Do you have three favourite Scripture passages?

I'll try to narrow them down.

One is the story of Samuel and Eli, because I think that we in the Church need to be prepared to find ourselves in Eli's shoes. We need to be able to say to a new generation of young people: "God is speaking to you, listen, listen to what God is saying to you." We have to be willing to hear that what God is saying to them rocks our world, disrupts our comfortable family.

The others are Gospel stories. One is, as mentioned, about inviting people on the edge to the banquet and being blessed. I think our blessing is tied up in making room at the table.

The other one is the story of the disciples going across to the other side of the lake. We forget that that story follows right after the feeding of the 5,000, or in Luke after the 4,000. The disciples forget about the abundance. They get so worried about there not being enough. I think it is so important as we cross over to a new generation of the Church to hear the stories and be reminded of the abundance of God, having provided more than enough for everyone. We must allow that to shape our decisions, rather than be shaped by our fear and anxiety about the Church about to fall to the ground. Maybe the Church will: God won't. Jesus won't.

Thank you very much for this chance to get together. In a sense this was an interview, but it was also a chat.

Sure it was. All conversations in Christian communities are not chats-not to diminish that-but I think we are brothers, and whether we see things the same way or not doesn't change that.

I would pray that God will give you wisdom and health and strength to carry out your responsibilities within our church. Thanks.

Thanks.

Rev. Ralph Garbe is a United Church minister on staff at Trinity United Church in Uxbridge, Ontario and a member of the Fellowship Publications Board.